Purpose of this blog

Dmitry Yudo aka Overlord, jack of all trades
David Lister aka Listy, Freelancer and Volunteer

Thursday, January 24, 2013

[WoT] The Map Thing

As I have mentioned a few times, we are currently streamlining our level design workflow and techniques. Your feedback on the existing in-game maps is highly welcomed.

Which of the current maps do you enjoy? Why?
Which reworked maps are overhauled poorly and why?
Maps of what setting/type do you prefer in general?

Let's discuss here.

PS. some extra info to fuel the discussion:
  • Dragon Ridge and Serene Coast will be disabled in 8.4.
  • Bumpy terrain of Prokhorovka, Abbey, El Halluf, and Ruinberg (rounded streets) are going to be addressed.
  • Redshire and El Halluf will undergo some gameplay changes.
  • Swamp and Komarin will be visually reworked and brought back to live.

235 comments:

  1. I have no problem with Dragon Ridge or Serene Coast from a gameplay perspective. In fact they are two of the more interesting maps to play.

    Also the streets in Ruinberg provide fantastic hull down positions because of the craters, if that's what you are talking about, please do not alter that.

    Redshire and El Halluf are limited in what you can do tactically, they have needed an overhaul for awhile now. Every battle seems to play out the same.

    Looking forward to the return of Swamp and Komarin...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As for Ruinberg, we will be mostly streamlining the streets.

      Delete
    2. i'm thinking maybe WG should implement some fog on some maps, or desert storms on those desert ones, or heavy rain or snow on others, to get the game more realistic. and maybe the radius of some tanks should decrease on the foggy maps. what do you say?

      Delete
    3. Dynamic weather effects are currently out of the scope. As for fog of war, I believe it's not necessary for random.

      Delete
    4. Yes it wouldn't be a quick or eay thing to implement but weather would have a great affect on maps, increasing or decreasing visibility and terrain softness. A map in the warm sun might be a completely different affair in heavy rain. Maps that tend to cause camping and sniping would play very differently in the fog.

      Delete
    5. not dynamic weather effect, but maybe for a test a map with a constant weather effect?

      but... what would it be, fog and reduced visibility? let's all camp some more?

      Delete
  2. I liked Swamp and am happy it's coming back. Not so much Komarin.

    Serene Coast is fun- not sure what the problem is there.

    Dragon Ridge is ridiculous because the battle seems to be lost or won in that little grove to the west (if you spawn south). It's quite boring.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. only because most noobs in mediums drive down there ... the battle can be won by mediums going to the other side of the map and capping.. :)

      Delete
  3. We need more maps like Steppes.

    ReplyDelete
  4. There's a few too many "idiot traps", like the forest in Murovanka or the Valley in Lakeville.

    In theory they're interesting but in practice they just lure in bad players to their death, losing the game.

    It makes for unbalanced and predictable gameplay.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I'm not wild about Dragon Ridge, but what's the problem with Serene Coast? I think it's an interesting one.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's an eternal campfest especially with lot of arties.

      Delete
    2. Serene Coast is boring, because it almost always leads to a very static game, where any "push" is easily spotted and shot from all around the map.

      Delete
  6. The hill on Himmelsdorf still has an invisible wall that won't let players take the plunge into the city streets below. The invisible wall has been there since 8.0!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ...So people can plunge over the edge and die?

      Delete
    2. Yes. But we can plunge over so many other hills, so why not this one?

      Delete
    3. I think it's because you'd fall behind the houses and be stuck there for the rest of the match. If you lived that is, and cause a draw.

      Delete
    4. There are rocks where that is possible on existing maps.

      If an enemy player gets stuck, the advantaged team can simply cap the base.

      Delete
  7. Dragon Ridge:
    -u have to many ways u can go and therefore to few tanks
    -the lower team can position a tank at H8, which can hit the enemy at D7/8 when they are crossing the way down. but the upper position doesnt have such a spot!

    Himmelsdorf:
    in the encounter mode the lower team can get to the castle without having to risk their tank (when u are late or got a slow tank) but the upper side has to do so. Maybe the upper side could get a second saver way up to the castle?

    For the problem with the to bumpy railroad: have u ever thought of lowering their height?

    For Prokhorovka, Abbey, El Halluf and Ruinberg its nice to hear that they get smoother!

    ReplyDelete
  8. My favourites are Lakeville, Siegfried Line and Mines. I especially like the reworked city of Lakeville that is now open enough to flank the enemy. It's also pretty easy to flank in the city of Siegfried Line.
    I dislike maps that have few choke points like Erlenberg and El Halluf. They always seem to play the same. If you try to do something different than usual it's not worth the risk.
    In Dragon Ride it's not worth to flank from the far west - while you go there the enemy is overrolled your team in the east because you weren't there. Serene Coast? - don't see much wrong with it.
    But what I would like to see the most is some new maps. Reworked maps are nice but it's been way too long since new maps.

    ReplyDelete
  9. As for the Dragon ridge, crrently I think that the players dislike it probably because they don't enjoy climbing all those hills. They take a heavy tank, drive it all the way down and then get bored when its time to go up again to defend the base.

    Of course, that is probably an effect of bad decisions but it still has the same outcome.. hate against Dragon Ridge.

    My question would be, is there any chance of changing the whole elevation of that specific map? :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Since we are disabling it, massive overhaul is quite possible.

      Delete
    2. Thank you for the answer. Guess I'll have to wait and see what will you guys do with it. :)

      If you could please just answer to this one more question/suggestion I have.. I would appreciate it a lot.

      It is about Serene Coast map.

      At this moment this map is marked by the players as an ultimate camping space. That is probably because it seems like the players can't find good tactic for advancing forward so eventually every idea that involves getting out from the cover and actually trying to do something in order to win.. is denied by the "Camp-theory" and amount of patience each side has. All of that is then ultimately suppressed by the timer, which often ends at 00:00 and then we get the overall bad feeling of players.

      My opinion would be that that happens because of "only" two mayor "paths" for advancing forward [ Hills and "Middle area" which is occupied by the rocks ]. Currently every map has at least three paths or even more [ For example, Mountain Pass - South path, North path and middle path with Bridge and river area ].

      My suggestion would be - Adding alternative routes to Serene coast [ Something like the area that has been added to Dragon Ridge ]. Area that could maybe replace some of the space that sea has occupied. Maybe an area with shallow waters with rocks and bumps will do just enough?


      And yes.. for the "what maps do you prefer/enjoy?" thingy, I love the appearance of Serene coast. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that there is no other map that is colorful like it, it looks like its spring season on it! So basically I would like more maps like that. Spring is coming soon after all. ^^

      ps: sorry for a bit longer text :3

      Delete
    3. I do agree that Serene Coast map doesn't promote gameplay diversity. What we see there is mostly stationary gameplay with those on the hill having advantage. Will be thinking how to improve the map.

      Delete
  10. Not a big fan of the El Halluf rework. The match always bottlenecks in one spot (you know which one I'm talking about), and the recent changes only made it so there's even less artillery cover. Ideally less cover would force more action, but it doesn't. It just compresses people into those few areas that have sufficient cover, bottlenecking things more.

    I don't like maps that basically have one or two feasible axes of advance, it limits the utility of mediums and lights severely and leads to two teams staring at the terrain features opposite them, waiting for some dumb fool to stick his head out and be annihilated.

    Serene Coast is another offender, and I'm glad it's being taken out. A really fast vehicle from the south can get to that nook in the northwest, but other than that there is little dynamic about the map.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Serene Coast is a camping snoozefest. I'm glad it's being removed.

    I'm not particularly crazy about Komarin coming back--it was also a rather boring map.

    Dragon Ridge is okay, though I think the eastern valley areas that was added should probably be reworked somehow.


    ReplyDelete
  12. I like most of the maps for various reasons, but for the most part it's because I feel like I can find very useful spots no matter what tank I'm driving. I even like dragon ridge and serene coast, I've been a part of some really fun and explosive pushes on both of them.

    The only map I absolutely despise is El Halluf, it really feels very limited. If you're a TD you're sniping on the hill, if you're a heavy you're sitting at the corner at A2, if you're a medium you're hanging out on the 7 line. If you're a light on the west spawn you charge for cap or D6, if you're a light on the east spawn you can only charge for G4 because the rocks on the cap no longer offer protection. The map itself heavily restricts what you can do, if you deviate from them you get obliterated because you're completely exposed.

    About the recent map reworks, you guys completely destroyed my hill on the northeast, which makes scouting the enemy's hill from either side exceptionally more difficult.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Maps like Redshire and El Halluf have too little cover - arty can hit you pretty much anywhere. Makes the map stagnate into camp fests. We need more houses, rocks and so on, more pathways for mediums and scouts. Make maps like South Coast and Himmelsdorf, which are like labyrinths, it results in the most dynamic gameplay.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Dear Overlord.
    Did you ever thought about making the Map Dragon Ridge only avaible for Low Tier? I only landed there with high tier 7 and up.
    Why not Tier 3 to Tier 5?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Basically we don't limit maps that way. There are only two options - available for all tiers, available for low tiers (battle tier 1-2 afair).

      Delete
  15. I like open, wide maps, while I do not play arty at all. I like bumpy terrain which offers many places for hull down and can be used to avoid fire. I like maps offering different terrain. So I am always satisfied, when I get Steppes, Fisherman's Bay, Siegfried line, Murovanka, well, since we have more then ten maps and Malinovka is not every second battle, I started to like this map. I also like Redshire (also it is a little campy) and Westfield (but please stop spawning slow Matilda in the valley i.e. at base cause it is too slow to climb, Matilda shall be spawned with heavies!).

    So, I think that mixed maps (some hills, some city, some open space), are most fair cause every type of vehicle has some good area for him.


    There was only one map I really hated - Komarin cause usually it was terrible camping and hiding around bases. Now I have no maps that I hate. But in some vehicles I do not like maps like Himmelsdorf, Lakeville, Port (terrible for TD's without turret, specially those with weak armor). These maps are bed for lightly armored vehicles which need some space and bushes to be safe. These maps are also bad for scouts cause offer only narrow passages. And narrow passages I hate most. I need space - to flank, to maneuver, to harass enemy - not narrow valleys of death, where alpha and armor are kings.

    I also do not like Widepark. It has the same problems as above mentioned maps and apart from that is very small - like for beginners - and divided with those terrible railway, which makes every battle almost identical.

    I agree that Serene Cost is bad. Too much camping and cross fire, but still better then was Komarin. Dragon Ridge is beatiful, but it need some changes. Too much terrain where nothing happens and where some teammates dissapear for long minutes, while rest of team fights. Recently T1 HT decided to flank (first going down and after that climbing again). He achieved the ridge, when last tank from our team died. He was our only tier V heavy. I would try moving bases to other flank or spawning meds and lights on left flank.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Lakeville is a desaster since it was reworked.

    The removal of cover for arti in the southern base in K1/2. Makes that flank nearly undefendable in randoms. The attacking force from the north has arti support (arti can hid behind hill in A1/2) southern base doesnt have this anymore, so that every arti that wants to support valley is dead meat. In CW u can counter that to some degree, but makes the tactic from the south predictable.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like the new Lakeville. It is fully possible to defend it from both sides. You just need to rethink your strategy.

      As it is now it's one of the best maps in both CW and random.

      Delete
    2. South has to move arti to K7-9 and that isnt a good option in randoms if you play with slow arti like 212 or GW-E. You just cant support the guys in the valley as good as the team in the nort without getting killed right away.

      In CW it makes u predictable ... .

      Delete
  17. Curious why you're removing Dragon ridge - it's always been one of my favorite maps. As I understand it, last time it was removed for performance reasons, which I assume were addressed.

    Dragon Ridge has a good combination of varied battle grounds and flanking opportunities. The middle is great because of the mostly destructible situated just outside of a mountain bend, and the more open but bumpy terrain west of the city. Those three features in the middle of the map work wonderfully; the bend promotes corner fighting, but the town and open area allow room for flanking. And the lower eastern area is a nice touch.

    I am, however, glad to see Serene Coast go for now. That map is one of my least favorites currently in rotation. The layout has a lot of variation, but this variation is usually nullified because the flanks are so over exposed to each other. Despite the huge amount of vertical variation from the west to the east side of the map, there isn't a lot of cover to keep the flanks in check and all too often once the teams have settled into the initial front line positions after a few minutes, it turns into a huge stalemate. As well, artillery is exceptionally hard to get to; anti-arty tanks have to brave fire from nearly all directions if they want to try and take out the enemy SPGs. I think I'd like to see something more like Prokhorovka's North-south divider; the railway that keeps the flanks separated. Prokhorovka does a much better job of it.


    Good to hear also that El Halluf and Redshire are being looked at. They are both more examples of stalemate-prone maps, and El Halluf has become more infamous than Malinovka in my eyes as an example of stalemates and too much camping.

    Tentatively anxious to see what is done with Swamp and Komarin. I wasn't a huge fan of swamp, though I didn't hate it as much as some people, but Komarin takes the cake for my least favorite map ever in WoT. There was zero room for mediums and lights to maneuver and it was the worst example of too-few and too-strong chokepoints.


    As for the others, I do have one major complaint with the map Steppes right now. In the North-eastern section of the map (just beyond the encounter flag), there is a large hilly mesa which is, for the most part, inaccessible. But in a fast enough tank and hitting the slope at the right angle, it is possible to vault the cliff wall and gain access to that area. This wouldn't normally be a problem, but near the back there is a very large hill with a dip down from the peak just before the corner of the map; most tanks can hide here very easily and become impossible to spot and engage, and nearly impossible to shoot with artillery. If an SPG was able to get up there, he'd have the perfect artillery pit. And because the terrain is so picky about actually letting you up there (as said, you have to hit the slope just right), even moreso on the south side, it becomes a problem because once tanks are up there they are exception. This is especially apparent on encounter if lly difficult to flush out.


    That all aside, a few of my favorite maps are Dragon Ridge, Airfield, Ensk, Siegfried line, Steppes, and Highway.
    My least favorites on the other hand are Serene Coast, Mines, Cliff, and Karelia.

    I like maps that give ample opportunity for flanking maneuvers, plenty of cover to separate the approaches (but enough paths between to keep them flowing), and urban areas that are irregular and contain some destructible buildings to keep things interesting. I find these qualities lend themselves to better overall gameplay.

    I'd like to see more winter and desert maps, as well as jungle/heavy vegetation like dragon valley. And on a related note, I'd like it if more maps used different camouflage. Currently, only a small handful of maps use desert and winter camo, while the vast majority use summer. While this is convenient for those of us wishing to save some credits - we can just buy summer camo and be covered most of the time - It devalues the other camos in respect to summer.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for detailed feedback.

      A significant part of Dragon Ridge is not available for usage. Plus we generally don't like the gameplay pattern we get on this map.

      I do agree that we need more winter and desert maps. To justify camos at least. :)

      Delete
    2. I've seen winter skin for lakeville some time ago - what if you could just make winter and summer version of most maps and switch them (now we would be playing on winter versions, from april we would be playing on summer varsions till november)

      Delete
    3. That's doable. Also thinking of different times of day - dawn, midday, sunset, night (?)

      Delete
    4. I think making different skins for maps would be an interesting novelty while not being as much time consuming as doing new map completely - problematic are new weather effects.
      There are not so many of them - reduced visibility comes to mind (night, fog, rain) and maybe increased terrain resistance (rain). Anything else is problematic (yeah, night with rain and thundersotrms ;D)

      the winter/summer skins for most map paired with dynamic map swithing for clan wars would be amazing - Ensk in Kiev would be already played in summer skin while ensk in Leningrad would be played in winter skin until weather there in real live will change :D

      Delete
  18. Dragon Ridge
    - South spawn has a big advantage, there is a bush at H8/H9 where you can spot/shoot the north spawn tanks as they cross D8 at the top of the path. North spawn has no comparable location.
    - There is a location in F7 where you can shoot the north tanks that always congregate in the small town and E9, and with good camo stay hidden because there are several trees obscuring the view. This is actually a good idea because it lets you break the stalemate of tanks that always camp on either side of the small ridge below, but north side needs a similar location. The path at D8 is useless because there is only one rock for cover and you are completely exposed to artillery.

    El Hallouf
    - I can't even express how much I hate this map. More 15 minute draws on this than any other maps I've played including old Swamps, Komarin, Malinovka, Province, etc.
    - The map is imbalanced in favor of north spawn, which has better defensive and attacking options.
    - North side can easily defend the paths in E8/F8 with one or two tanks in D7 who have good cover from arty, so pushing up those hills is suicidal until very late game.
    - North side can hold off a much larger force in A2 with a few heavies and TD/arty support. The addition of more arty cover and even bushes in C6 just encourages camping there. North side can even put tanks in D7/C7 that can hit A2, they just need someone to spot. They have no fear of being spotted in return.
    - Even if south side manages to clear out defenders in A3, continuing to A4 means taking fire from C6 (where they will be hiding behind the bushes) and D7 and it is also not practical to push the south side of the hill to B5. So south side "winning" A3 actually accomplishes nothing.
    - North side can attack C1/D1 from multiple angles. Tanks who decide to flank C1/D1 from the east are exposed much less to incoming fire, than south side tanks who try and flank A3 from behind when they are attacking.
    - Artillery cover in C1/D1 is worse so south side defenders are more easily killed.
    - The SE area was generally improved in the revamp with more cover.
    - However artillery is still way too safe. The common hiding locations in K4 and F0 are hard to get to. Even if south side manages to get to F8, or north gets to J6, to get to the artillery they still need to climb large hills out in the open. There needs to be a path to get to K4 and F0 to force the other team to actually DEFEND those points. A couple tanks in D8 on north side can defend the arty all the way in F0 because it takes 15+ seconds to get over that hill. South isn't as bad but it's still a problem.

    Redshire
    - I really hope you have something brilliant planned for this, because it's my second most hated map behind El Hallouf. My general tactic for this map is to afk for 3-4 minutes when I see it loading to grab some food, read news, emails, etc. Then hopefully the teams have thinned out enough that I can actually do something without having 6 people camping on a hill shooting me.

    Lakeville
    - The church needs to be reoriented. South side can easily hit enemy tanks attempting to take cover on the north side of the church from their spawn.

    Serene Coast
    - It's like El Hallouf lite. Although the map is huge there are only two places you can actually attack the enemy team (1 line and 5 line) and those points are easily defended.

    South Coast
    - I really, really want to like this map, but something about it just seems so... lacking. I think it's because the beach is mostly a joke and easily defended by a few heavies and arty, and the town is not tactically viable - you are exposed to fire from 2-3 sides and won't spot enemies before they spot you, so even with all the hard cover there are no good firing locations. Due to this the battle is almost always decided by the eastern half.
    - The gameplay would be much improved if the town became an important tactical location, e.g. by elevating it on a hill so it offers better cover and can spot the surrounding areas.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. (continued)

      Mountain Pass
      - North has a big spotting advantage. One tank parked in E4 can spot everything south is sending to the middle ravine and the SW corner of the map as they cross that open area. South has no comparable bush/spotting location without putting yourself in danger.

      Arctic Region
      - South side can too easily spot/shoot enemies going to the NW corner.

      Karelia
      - On standard mode this map is great, on assault it is terrible. Most defenders never move more than 1 map square away from the spawn which leads to long, boring battles.

      Maps that I like/think are fairly well balanced:
      Himmelsdorf, Ruinberg, Widepark, Siegfried Line, Abbey, Ensk

      Delete
    2. Thanks. Very informative.

      Think we need maps specifically designed for assault / counter battle?

      Delete
    3. Specially designed maps for other than normal game modes would be a great idea! I allways tought about more maps like Siegfried Line in assault mode where one team must defend a city, a hill, a bridge, a defence line with bunkers, an industrial complex, a railroad station, military base or other strategic stuff and the other invading team has one or more spawnpoints across the map or few at one edge. I think that would increas gameplay variety.

      As for existing maps and as mentioned befor El Haluf is a very boring map becouse of just one way wich you can provide an attack. Dragon ridge would be a great map if maybe the elevation level of the terrain would be a bit smaller.

      Delete
    4. special map designs for different game mods, hell yeah! it's a must

      there is a reason very few play assault

      Delete
    5. Absolutely maps need to be designed specifically for Assault. Some dude did a study and found that many of the assault maps are wildly unbalanced, with Westfield being the worst. Team 1 wins fully 2/3rds of the time.

      http://joi.betra.is/?p=1641

      Delete
    6. Most of the standard maps seem to work well in encounter and are even improved (e.g. Malinovka), but I can't think of any map that is better on assault mode than standard. From this I conclude that either 1) maps do need to be specifically designed for assault, or 2) assault mode is inherently imbalanced/not fun. I hate #2 because I'm sure WG worked hard on it, but if it really is the case then best to cut your losses and move on. There are a lot of other good ideas for new game modes.

      Delete
    7. both teams have the advantage in mountain pass to spot the other side. Problem is you can shoot from your position in the north unspotted while the other position in the south is just a spotting bush.

      Delete
  19. Serene Coast is not a good map, the hill position in the two column and the island offer vantage points that shut down movement between the bases, leading to boring stalemates.

    Dragon Ridge however is a map that I have a lot of fun on, but the fact that only half the map is ever used is a problem. It's perfectly viable to move into the centre of the map along the high ground even in a slower tank, but with the addition of the second lower village most people head there for whatever reason, those that don't tend to stick the the road that runs from spawn to spawn, ignoring the rest of the map.

    The rest the maps are a mixed bag, not keen on the return of Komarin, but I never had a problem with Swamp to begin with. I would like some more winter maps though, perhaps consider redoing some of the city maps as winter ones.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. IMO the best way to make Dragon Ridge more interesting would be to shift the cap points to the west corners, while keeping the spawn points in the east. Then you could even adapt it to Encounter by putting the cap point in the west-central area of the central village and just adding a ramp up from the low east village.

      Delete
  20. Malinowka needs an overhaul: its very arty friendly and the bases of each team are too close together (line of sight).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Cmon! Malinovka is a classic masterpiece of our level design. ;)

      Delete
    2. Malinovka is a map that is much better in company/CW then random battles. Similarly Komarin or Erlenberg.

      Delete
  21. As far as I am concerned Dragon Ridge could be deleted for good and I would be happy but I love Serene Coast. I am glad to hear Swamp and Komarin are back as well since they should have never been removed in the first place since they only time they were problematic was when there was a bunch of arty which did not happen most of the times I got on the maps. Camping was also a bit of the issue on the two maps and it could get a bit slow however it never bothered me that much.

    In terms of maps I like I love Himmelsdorf, due to the arty cover and the hill being a great sniper spot. I also like Lakeville because of all the options there are to get to the other teams base. The other map I love is mines due to the hill again being a great sniping spot plus even though it had it's name changed way back it is a classic map from the open beta along with Himmelsdorf.

    As for the overworked maps Dragon Ridge is just awful everyone either goes into the valley or town and leaves 1/3 of the map open in public matches so pretty much the map has a ton of wasted space and as much as I like the idea of a map set in Asia Dragon Ridge is just beyond repair bad and should just be scrapped. If the path on the left was made shorter to get to the other base it may be alright since more people might go that way but that is the only way I see that map ever becoming bearable.

    As for my map preference I love city maps so a map based off of a large city in Asia with a jungle on the outskirts would be a great replacement for Dragon Ridge. I also like maps which provide a lot of natural cover such as the sand dunes in Sand River and I would love to see a map similar to Lakeville but instead of a lake in the middle maybe a mountain instead which could be climbed from either side to provide sniper cover but I do not know how well that would work. Just figured I would post a few ideas since even though I have read this blog for quite some time I have never posted on it until now.

    ReplyDelete
  22. My favorite maps are Sand River, The Steppes, and El Halluf. I enjoy maps that are more desert in nature. I would love a map that resembles the training area of Ft. Bliss (the deserts of New Mexico). This would be a map that you could basically drive in a straight line across from any point to another; however, there would be hundreds of dunes that noobs could go over or the more prudent to go around. The dunes would offer anything from hull down positions to full cover. In addition, there would be ravines that could channel movement or be used to penetrate through the enemy defenses. There would be gentle contour lines that would limit visibility to a few hundred meters. Oh my, I am starting to have visions of yester-year running around in my M60A1.

    ReplyDelete
  23. like himmeldorf. :)

    the maps i hate i hate for 2 reasons. excessive drive time, and arty. having to drive 2 or 3 minutes to get to the action (think highway, redshire) is quite annoying and out of place in a quick-action game. arty is obvious.

    ReplyDelete
  24. My favourite maps are tanks with cities. They generally work for all tank types aside from arty (Another one of the reasons why I like it, because arty doesn't)

    Worst favourite map is Malinovka. Personally I think it would be fine if the buildings on the south side of the map were moved into the middle of the field. TD's would still have long sniping lines, but at least there'd be cover.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Malinovka's field of death is sacred. No building should ever spoil it.

      Delete
    2. "They generally work for all tank types aside from arty "

      Thats not true. All lightly armored tanks are in disadvantage in cities. All tanks which need camouflage to be effective (like many TD's) are in disadvantage in cities. All players who learned to use terrain are also in disadvantage in cities, where you have usually all places flat.

      In reality city only maps are good only for heavily armored tanks and IMO they flatten players skill cause battles changes in childish peek-a-boo party.

      The only reason why people are so much pro-city maps is that they do not have to worry so much about arty. But they do not see how many tactics and styles of playing are killed by such city maps.

      Delete
    3. OverlordJanuary 25, 2013 at 12:06 PM
      Malinovka's field of death is sacred. No building should ever spoil it.

      LOLd at this. I'm on the same opinion.

      Delete
    4. Just lower spawn points so lights going over the field cant spot every thing in the enemy base and you solve some of the problems with malinovka. And add some more bushes on the eastern side of the map. This is to alow better scouting of the enemy.

      Delete
  25. I would love to see a lot more city maps, especially ones in Stalingrad, Leningrad (I know tanks never actually fought *in* Leningrad, but it has some great architecture; and hey, tanks never actually fought in Live Oaks either :P), Berlin, Rome etc; a Remagen Bridge (very important historical location, after all) map would be nice too. Himmelsdorf, Ruinberg and to a leeser degree Ensk are maps that are fun at all levels; I remember very clearly that in the first few weeks I was playing WoT that Himmelsdorf was the map I most wanted to get.

    I'm sad to see Dragon Ridge go *again* - why? It's a fun map for every kind of tank, it has a very unique look and character, and I don't know anyone who wanted it gone. Serene Coast isn't as good in terms of playability as DR, but still, it would be sad to see it go as I fear that in its place we'll just be force-fed some of the *genuinely* awful maps over and over...genuinely awful maps like:

    • Malinovka - boring, small, very limited playstyle and no arty cover to speak of. This map should be low-tier only like Province, it's a 'starter' map and nothing more; at high tiers this map is just unbearable, especially given how many high-tier maps are artyfests anyway.

    • Redshire - same as Malinovka, really; although it has a little more variety of terrain it's still an arty shooting range for the most part.

    • El Halluf - this map is just hideously appalling in every way. I can't believe people complained about Dragon Ridge and Serene Coast but didn't complain about this horrific map, which is just a turkey-shooting range for arty. Maps with no arty cover like this one are AWFUL to play on for everyone that isn't arty, I don't understand why this seems so hard for level designers to grasp - EVERY map should have plentiful arty cover, or they just turn into campfests where nobody wants to move for fear of being one- or two-shotted if they stick their nose out. It's well-known that arty causes camping (no matter how much arty apologists try to deny this) and in the absence of the much-asked-for selectable 'No Artillery' game mode then all WoT maps should be designed accordingly, with plentiful arty cover to let everyone else have a chance at some fun too. Currently FAR too many maps are just wide-open arty shooting ranges (Steppes, Prokhorovka, Live Oaks, Sand River, etc etc).

    • Mines - actually a great fun little map for low tiers, but at anything above tier 5 or so it's so small that it feels very cramped. The visual theme is great, but it's just too small for higher tiers. It lacks Malinovka's more odious flaws, but I would still suggest this be restricted to lower tiers as a 'starter' map unless it can be enlarged.

    The map rotation seems extremely unbalanced; it can often give you the same map 5-6 times out of 10 matches, and if this is a map you hate it's a strong incentive to log out and go do something else. Is there any real reason why the map rotation can't be set to give a wider spread instead of repeating the same small set of maps over and over?

    And it was hinted at a long time past that we'd get the option to deselect a couple of maps from the list, but there's still no sign of this feature. I know this would be HUGELY welcomed by everyone, so when can we actually hope for this to go live? Seriously, this would be a HUGE plus for everyone - we all have maps we hate, and simply allowing people to opt out of the ones they loathe would make everyone a lot happier with WoT's day-to-day gameplay. Even if we could only do it for say 3 maps, just the ability to click to deselect Redshire, Malinovka and El Halluf, for example, I'd be a lot more inclined to stay logged in...a slightly longer waiting time would be well worth it to never have to play maps I hate again.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Regarding deselect option, we haven't dumped it completely. Still under consideration.

      Delete
    2. It would be a great way to get metrics on which maps people like/dislike, especially if combined with game mode options.

      Delete
    3. God yes. Deselection of maps PLEASE. Or even just the ability to select 'sets' of maps (say 10-15), like 'just open maps' or 'just closed maps' or 'just city maps'.

      Please please please.

      Delete
  26. I've got 2 small questions, one already answered in the blogpost so here's the second: Where's Province? I haven't seen it for ages. I love that map :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Province is only for small tiers. I get to play it every night with my T1E6...

      Delete
    2. I keep in garage one II tier tank only to have Province from time to time. WG could think about adding one or two tiers more to that map to make it appear more often. Tier IV and V fights there shall be OK too.

      Delete
  27. Main problem with El Halluf is that the north-east spawn can get into good positions at A3 well before the other team can get close.

    Serene Coast seems to have too few options to advance, especially for the north team. South team can generally get a medium to B1 fairly easily. This medium can get flanking shots at any advancing tank and can't be easily dislodged due to support fire from the E2 hill. South can't advance easily due to flanking fire from the E9 island and tanks around B5. Thus it tends to stalemate until one team gets bored and rushes, normally to their death.

    ReplyDelete
  28. 1 new map => Stalingrad
    Big city map in Snow!!

    ReplyDelete
  29. On some maps I happen to come across points that just slow your tank down so much, as if you hit glue or something. There are many maps that seem to have these and some times they seem to be edges of a mountain that look like you can go right over but can't and also in city maps with random stuff in the roads.

    ReplyDelete
  30. My main problem with ALL maps is creating spots that encourage camping, but since it's not about stating a simple fact, I will try to make my comment to all maps one by one.

    1. Airfield - IMO one of the best maps currently available, ballanced and with several nice points where most fighting takes place. Only thing i dislike is that You can go "upwards" with a fast tank on F4, so You are capable of going up from the valley, but there is noting comprable on the other side of the map, so team starting in the east have one more rout than the west team.

    2. El Hallouf - One big camp fest on 75% of the map, and with a choke point on the northwest point. IMO this map only works on encounter when a fast scout gets behind a rock on cap, and FORCES other players to go out from cover. The only thing that discourages camping has recently been done by making the map easier for arty (fnny that it has been made while ppl are complaining about arty!). IMO the problem is in cover. Well covered places (H4, D8, J5, B6) provide excelend visibility AND a solid cover at the same time making it simply NOT WORTH scouting or attacking. IMO You should ONLY have hard cover (like a rock) or visibility blocker (like a bush), but NEVER combine those. At the same time these "ultimate camping spots" have an excellent visibility on at least 50% of the valley, so there is no reason not to sit there. Make something blocking line of fire for these camping spots, and they will not be so attactive for passive players. On the plus side is the dried out rivr bed that now is at least some sort of cover in the mid!

    3. Erlenberg - This one is a bit difficult to tell if I really like it or not. On one hand it's pretty much ballanced, and both sides have more or less equal chance to win, but at the same time it always turns into fight on two "hill ends" (C2, H9) with maybe 2 amping tanks on "hills" (F/G2, D9) and nearly NOTHING in the middle. I think that adding some route in "shallow water" that would enable going from side bridges to the middle one "in the river bed" could add something more. Also another thing is that the team starting in the notrh is lacking some sort of equivalent for the hill on F0 (south team can scout from there to check "who's on the camping spot"), and there is no way to scouts area arround the castle just as easy. But it's still a pretty balanced map to play.

    4. Fisherman's Bay - Also a hard one. I guess that the only tink I'd like to se there is a little change to the middle, so it would be a bit harder to scout. Maybe making the very top a bit wider, and the road below the terrain level (just a bit, if You know what I mean). his would not leave any "fast flat surface" that does not take any speed away, but at the same time would compensate speed loss by elevation cover. At the same time making the hill top a bit wider and with that road "a bit below" would (most likely, but guess that takes testing) make spotting in the very beggining a bit harder. Now it's just a wild rush making slowest tanks sitting ducks for enemy arty as they do not have the minimum time to take cover at all. (My T95 on that map died of art in first 2 minutes at least in 80% of games played there)

    (I will continue this list soon with a comment to this post, as I reached the character limit :D)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 5. Kareila - Not much to say here, because it's a pretty balanced and fun to play map. Only problem I can point out for this moment is visibility diference in the southeast corner of the map. What's the issue? Bushes on G9 vs NO bushes on J7. This caused a larger part of my battles there looking like this: "Invisible tanks from north shooting sitting ducks from the south". This can be easily solved if You can get a scout onto the hill before anything starts sitting in the bushes, but MM is not THAT PERFECT :D (and if we have two teams where one gets M48 patton, and the other gets a BatChat it's OK in terms of firepower, but this gets hill for free for the team with the fast tank). Maybe some sort of "narrow and slow" path from J5 and E9 to the top of the hill ould compensate that, but that's the only idea I have for that map.

      6. Malinovka - Oh boy, here we go again, right? :D My main issue with this map is that there seems to be a lot of details needed here, but no bir remakes needed. First of all is that there is imbalance in amount of cover in the two starting areas. Where it's pretty much obvious that it's not designed to make camping easier, it's not balanced in terms of shooting back when the teams ended up camping after all.In the south we have a lot of indestructible buildings where 8 up to 10 tanks can safely sit and wait, where in the north there aretwo rocks and a wreck (maybe 4-5 tanks can fit there and shoot "from beind the cover") Of course the "trench" below these rocks was supposed to make up for this lack of cover, but what it does is making tanks get hit in their turrets while terrain shape dos not let them fight back, because its a SLOPE, and the gun depression on many tanks is not enough to shoot back. A simple solution would be to make this not only a trench, but some sort of two level trench with 2-3 places where the terrain is leveled enough to shoot with Your chasis straight, but with the turret uncovered, and a second level that is lower, but does not allow You to shoot or spot.

      7. Murovanka - One of the most annoying maps in the game. It's very imbalanced due to that unfortunate forest placement! One team is desperately trying to spot whatever is sitting in the woods, as the other one can be 5 meters away, but will stay invisible as long as the don't move or shoot, because there are 5 or 6 layers of bushes (and we all know that these boost eachother the more there is). What it leads to is that we have 10+ players in perfect tover shooting scouts one by one at the same time getting maybe 2-3 tanks form the group spotted. The other team on the other hand can easily be spotted by one scout jumping in and out from the forest, that leads to a rain of projetiles "out of nowhere" The other team despite having hills on their side is NOT covered from arty at all, as these are not "clifs" that would give any cover. Most arty fire is steeper than the slope of these hills, so every spotted tanks is a potential target. At the same time arty from south has no spotted targets in the forrest, because of 12313414 bushes there! And come on, there are hardly any trees in that forrest anyway. IM it should look more like this:
      - http://dooktor.pl/image_atta/art/hcTj5ydpMEy3bm8wE8oYS6494OwYjF.jpg
      With more trees (bigger chance to trample one), and only SOME spots with bushes blicking visibility. Besides, every person who has seen a forrest of pine trees knows that big trees DO NOT have any branches near the ground (and YOU DID make that thing right on the Arctic Region map, that has a lot more realistic trees with lot less space between them).

      Delete
    2. 8. Prokhorovka - Performing pretty well. Maybe I would replace some visibility blocking objects along the "road" with something that does NOT give detection buonus, but blocks projectiles at the same time (maybe wrecked tanks like these on Abbey). In a much more limited way we have the same "sfiring out of nowhere" situation as we have on Murovanka, but as there are some buildings on Murovanka, we have NO obstacles here, so a spotted tank evaporates instantly. No other suggestions, ths has already been reworked nicely.

      9. Redshire - Two artilery hills that discourage any scouting as You die faster than vehicles get spotted, and if they DO get spotted, they just back up 3-4 meters an nothing can harm them, which makes spotting pointless. Side routes evaporate because of these "bunker hills", so attacking on flanks is just as pointless.

      10. Sand River - Very ice and ballanced map, Good Job! The only (not that big at all) issue is that it seems a bit easier (and faster) to get on norther rocky hills from south base, than it is from the north one, so when it comes to fights for these points usualy one team is in the valley, and the other one is shooting them from the hill top. It's not impossible to win, but beeing on the top lets You hide a bit easier, as the valley does not let You coves as good. All in all it's at least 8.5 out of 10 :)

      11. Serene Coast - My main issue? 1/3rd of the map is just a large area of water, where You did show us a bit of "look what an awesome spot is this island", but on the other hand if we had two more of those connected with some shallow water and maybe another bridge on the other end ... we would have a third route to go since the other two are very easily blocked with very few defenders needed to do so. Another issue is that F2 as a "sniping position" for south team is way better than the island is for the north. Some work needs to be done to either ceate another route, or make that hill not that powerful position to hold.

      12. South Coast - A very confising map, and I both Love it and Hate it at the very same time, so as much as It clearly needs some work, it's hard for me to point out what exactly. I guess that it's beeing divided only in "North to south" orientated strips makes it divided into "channels". So it has like 4 routes leading from north to south, but only in the middle You cango all the way from east to west, so it just feels like it should be at least 50% bigger with one more route going fro west to east, so that we could not olny "choose one of the channels to go for", but also use this massive grid to fland, surround etc. At the moment as much as it seems to have a lot of routes - it does not give a lot of ways to play them.

      Delete
    3. 13. Steppes - Pretty nice map. Balanced for standard fights, HARD for encounter. Why? Because if You lost Your fight near the cap, and You need to go spot or break th cap fron the other side of the map it's pretty much impossible. Nearly all fast tanks after falling "into the road" loose so much speed, that they get left with no speed and usualy don't make it in time. What I would like to see is just a slight change so we have two or three spots where the slope is not so steep, so faster tanks can just rush for their "last chance run". Everything else is pretty much right about this map, and it feels balanced most of the times.

      14. Swamp - One big choke point in the old version. I'm waiting to seewat has changed in 8.4 ;)

      15. Westfield - Prett nicely balanced on std. game mode, but totaly fails in assault. It's unplayable, and when I was playing in the defending team and got disconnected nobody noticed I was not moving for first 3 minutes till I logged back in, as they alljust moved back 4-5 meters to the tree line, and sat there for the rest of the game. No matter what happened - every single game looked exactly like this, and for this game mode this map is a total disaster!

      16. Himmelsdorf - Not bad in terms of balance, but I would be glad to see some more "park thingies" in the middle. A couple of trees, some bushes arranged in nice lines etc. At the moment it's just nealy dead, as the middle area has no advantages at all. There is no reason to be there as You can get spotted from every point on the map, and get hit from both hill and streets as well. At the same time the hill itself is a nice place to hold, but has recently been remade in a very disappointing way. Northern way has been blocked by some absurd unrealistic wall (and You could have come up with something more elegant!), and it's also now "baby safe" as You can not fall from the hill. We allow players to drown in water, but not to fall to their death? There is no logic in that? It's disappointing and because of that himmelsdorf has lost some of it's charm that we had in the beggining. Another thing is that on the southern out onto the top of the hill there is apile of rubble that allows You (with a bit of efford) to move from one rout to the oher. I think it should be smoother and turned out into a fully funtional route, so it will be just easier to flank taks sitting "behind the corner" on the 0 line.

      17. Abbey - No changes needed, I like it as it is now!

      18. Arctic Region - A very fun map to play. The main issue is that in situations when You really start to get map domination and You are 5 tanks defending against 8 or 10, You can easily still win on the southern base, but north is totaly open, and it's much easier to shoot everyone in there. It lacks some defensive cover in the "second part of the battle" when northern and middle parts are taken by the south team that can shoot remaining defenders from 500m+ distance. At the same time defending southern base against much larger forces makes them come to much smaller distances, and it's just easier to "sit behind th corner with guns ready". I would also like a bit more efford put into these "passages" through these deep water holes, as it's clear that there are paths You can follow, but these are made SO difficult to follow and SO rough, that I effectively used one of these with real value (battle changing) only ONCE in my over 14K battle history.

      Delete
    4. 19. Cliff - One of the more balanced aps made so far, but with several problems. First of all both edges are clear choke points, an it's realy hard to get stuck on them without some clear numerical superiority. One way that could add a bit of value to these choke points would be maybe addition of some sort of ledge (or beach?) Connectiong H8, and C8 with an additional point somewhere between E8 and F8 that would also allow to move from the lower level to the upper level. Last thin that comes to my mind is the narrow path uphill between E3 and F3. As mych as it's a great addition that allows You to "retake" the upper leve of the map from behind, it also favors players starting in the south, as tey can just climb it as they go, as the oppositing team has to reach F2/F3, turn arround, and cling it from nearly a full stop. This needs rebalancing.

      20. Dragon Ridge - Spawning point placement in a way forces both teams to stay in the "new valley" or on the main road, because gatting anywhere else takes just to long, and before "route arround" takes You into the battle all the fighting is long over. IMO this could be solved by limiting this map to MED and LIGHT tanks only, or alternatively moving starting positions to cap circles AND current posiotions at the same time (just as Westfield has double spawning points), so that part of the players would be much closer to the "arround route" and would have more reasons to go anywhere else than the main road and the valley behind it.

      21. Ensk - Very fun map to play IMO, but with some choke points in it as well. I would put several destroyed tanks on line 1 to patialy bock line of fire, and enable players to move out of these two blocks that currently act as "fortress" for each team. This chiking point is caused not because the map is in any way "bad", but because existing alternative routes are just a bit insufficiently covered form the sides. Another addition that would make this map much more reasonable if adding some way to navigate between trains in a similar way Port map (with no straight path, but without having to go all the way arround).

      22. Fjords - Another messed up map. As much as I like It due to it's specific gameplay style, it also annoys me as hell when it comes to balance. It is learly designed to be "semi-symetrical" with choke points on nothern and southern edges (J5 and A8), as both points can be easily defended with 3-4 tanks, but it already gves a large handicap for the eastern team. Their tanks on their way to point A8 are covered all the way up, and reach taht spot with full healt, but tanks that are going south to deend J5 are hit from F6, and also BY THE ARTY that can do some bling shots just based on the time elapsed from the battle beggining (at least some arties with faster reload times). This is the main design flaw in this map, but it only gets bigger if eastern team manages to take the spot of E5. This point allows to take cover form western teams artilery and defenders sitting on A6 and A7, and at the same time shoot players trying to defend thesouthern pass by slowly moving back towards the base. This means that every defender on southern route is from the very beggining in a big disadvantage. Last thing is that there is NO position for the western team that would give so big area that can be covered with fire, as the est team has when holding E6. That leads west to east win ration at the level of 1:2 if not 1:3 for the east.

      Delete
    5. 23. Lakeville - Pretty much balanced map. Arty cover on A2 should be lower to block tank fire,but not artilery fire, the same as it works on K2. At the moment norther artilery is covered from both types of fire, while south arty can only feel sae when it comes to tank fire with flat projetile trajectory.

      24. Live Oaks - North side currently has no equivalent of pits on H1/G1 that is a perfect cover for arty. This means that Northern team has a little disadvantage when it comes to arty location. Limited points to place SPG means it's also easier to counter. Rest looks pretty much balanced to me.

      25. Highway - Another "almost balanced" map, but I do not have any exactl idea how to tweak it, as apparently this map is selecter by MM rarely.

      26. Mines - One of better balanced maps in the game at the moment. On the other hand it seems to favor northern team in terms of couting, as a scout that manages to reach H1 unnoticed has man places to hide, and any scout vehicle that gets up to e1 from the south team has no further cover to use at all. Of course this is balanced by natural positions arty tends to take on this map (corners instead of the whole map edge). All in all any balance issues are so small, that I o not think any tweaking is really needed.

      27. Mountain Pass - Well balanced map. One of the best out there for he moment, but also with some "choking points" that would be rather hard to get rid of without any big remake.

      28. Province - "For fun" kind of map. Unplayable in terms of any tactics an position play due to it's size.

      29. Ruinberg - No comments on this one, as streets are already an issue that has been adressed.

      30. Seaport - Southern side seems to have a bit less places for arty to stand and does not provide as good fire coverage for artilery. It seems that driving through these bridges is also bugged, as "connetions" between brdge sections are hard as a rock (my VK28 hit one to a full stop from nearly max speed and was thrown into the air into almost vertical position), and You need to add more breaking points to suspension as at themoment it does not work properly witn small terrain details that are placed on maps like Seaport and Ensk. Funny fact: Standarised shipping containers were used since 70's btw., so thats a historical blooper :P.

      31. Siegfried Line / 32. Widepark - Both are pretty decent maps. Only thing I have against Widepark is that bending of the railway allows tanks from E7 to hit everything that is between D1 and E5 without having to go all the way up, as there is no such spot for the southern team.

      Delete
    6. I like your analysis on each map. Perhaps you would like to check out the percentage post ( http://joi.betra.is/?p=1641 ) and see if the numbers agree with your findings. Westfield Assault is the most unbalanced map in the game as you said yourself, it is horrible.

      Delete
    7. Przemysław Majkowski,

      Just awesome! That's not a feedback, but a review for all in-game maps.

      Delete
    8. You're welcome :)
      And it seems that what "I felt" more or less fits stats from the site Riddai linked, so at least I know my logic is still working properly inside my head :D

      On the other hand there is no way to give real feedback without giving examples of specific points that cause problems and imbalance.

      PS:
      Excuse my typos, as I recently bought a new laptop and I'm still getting used to a completely different keyboard. Now, as I read my posts above I feel terribly ashamed of how it looks :P

      Delete
    9. 17. Abbey - No changes needed, I like it as it is now!

      I dont entirely agree with you. In E3,F3,G3 the water is too deep it would be really good if light and medium tanks could go through that lake.

      Delete
    10. But there is a way to get through that water. Of course You can not get up the hill from it, but it's totaly possible the other way around, and I oten use it as a scout to "pop out of nowhere" ;)

      You can not go all the way from north to south and back, but there still are hidden paths. Get a friend into a training battle, and just drive around and look for possible ways through. You would be suprised how many are there (not only on abbey map).

      Cheers! :)

      Delete
    11. While I'm here, Abbey is also one of my favourite maps.

      Delete
    12. Hi,

      This guy needs a reward, 5000 gold for him please.

      Greets,
      NT

      Delete
    13. Thanks NT :)

      BTW: You can always visit the gift shop and do me a favor if You ever find my in-game name (not related to my gmail or G+ name in amy way) :P

      Delete
    14. @pm
      2. El Hallouf
      maybe more bushes in a middle would help. That would allow tanks to go down and spot campers sniping from the while being invisible. Then just siting there in best camp spots would not be enough.

      26. Mines
      on randoms over 55% battles are won by south side. On ESL/tournaments south side also is always preferred.

      You left out Komarin. Which was modified and upgraded a lot so we will see when it comes back to the rotation.

      Delete
  31. I'd like to start this (somewhat large) post by saying what I feel the game lacks the most map wise:

    MORE HIMMELSDORF LIKE MAPS!

    When I played that map the first time I fell in love with it, it is still my favorite map after over 9k battles! (No matter the tank I play!, LT, MT, HT, TD, and arty (except 261)).

    Wheres Stalingrad, Berlin, Warsaw, Moscow, etc etc etc. Adding more of these will also make several of the now somewhat obsolete tanks useful again. It also are maps where it is very hard for artillery to do well. over 90% of the maps are designed for arty to do well in, that's bad.

    I quite like Dragon ridge, but my brother when he plays T95 hates it as he never gets anywhere. The main issue seems to be players being MORE incapable than usual in where to go. The map could use some minor tweaks (the middle is largely unused due to the ricefields being a go down way only).

    Serene coast is TERRIBLE. Half the map you can't even use, this is bad! Everyone funnels down one of the two routes and waits for 15 minutes for the match to end. Bad design. Open up the ocean part majorly (low tide maybe? more bridges, more islands, ANYTHING).

    Swamps main issue was how slow it was to drive on, causing everyone to ignore the center as trying to flank there left you far to slow to not die before you got to do anything.

    Ruinberg, I see nothing wrong with this map, the streets have no issues? If you mean the craters, they are awesome to use for offensive tactics.

    Komarin... lot of bad memories from it. Hope it;s a drastic rework. 3 bridges as the only way to the enemy is impossible to push through or flank or create ANY form of dynamic gameplay.

    Prokhorovka, main issue is the forest in the corners where EVERYONE that is "not such a good player" (read terrible, aka most of them) goes and sits the ENTIRE game. My suggestion, move the forest further forward including most of the bushes. Add a small cluster in the middle of the field too for mediums to use perhaps.

    Redshire, actually not that bad after the update, main issue is if you want to push, the ridges (terrain bumps?) aren't high enough to prevent you getting shot from every angle possible.

    El halluf, love and hate relationship after the update, still suffers the same problem in randoms, heavies go to the one side, mediums rush down to the water. Nothing ever changes, the middle remains largely unused, and with some tweaking the middle has the potential to be used to have a dynamic effect on both flanks depending on how it gets tweaked.


    Overall wish:

    More space that is USEABLE (aka, NOT like middle of field in Malinovka). And more pure city maps like Himmelsdorf! (Although Ensk, Siegfried, ruinberg like is acceptable too if you plain out refuse to make any...).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We were thinking of making "Stalingrad, Berlin, Warsaw, Moscow, etc" maps, but have put the idea into trunk for now. We don't have enough resources at this stage to produce such unique maps in bulk. Plus their Clan Wars availability will be limited.

      Delete
    2. Yeah, but You can at least make some themed maps by the general architecture style. Some middle east and north africa could use cities (and by cities i think of maps like ruinberg/widepark/himmelsdorf) themed with arabic architecture (narrower streets, lower buildings, tight marketplaces with a LOT of destructibles that block visibility and NO set street grid except one main street). Same way we could use some american styled maps (with 90 degree crossroads and a lot of straight streets, many "not to solid" builings). Getting some sort of general themed city tat can fit into 4-5 spots on the CW map is always good, besides - these maps always perform well in competetive play :)

      Delete
    3. Yes, that's quite possible.

      Delete
    4. For komarin would be nice if you can use alternative pathes through the water like in erlenberg ;)

      and if possible so that the campers have to expose themselves to get rid of the incomming menace and not that the attacker (in the water) comes out right in front of the camping cannons =P

      Delete
  32. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have to agree with your Blogpost... Serene Coast is annoying. lol

      Delete
  33. (REPOST due to changed URL - Sorry Darkquest)

    Greetings Overlord. I'm afraid my observations on these maps require a blogpost which you can find here: http://joi.betra.is/?p=1641

    Basically the hard numbers, those which we can obtain without Wargaming, point to Westfield Assault as the most unbalanced map in the game, followed by Fjords and then two more Assault maps. The second most unbalanced Standard battle map after Fjords is Dragon Ridge where the south side have a massive 29% edge over the north.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow, a lot of work and some great analysis! Very well written. Hopefully we can get some internal numbers and see how close you are on this. Remember we also have to draw numbers from every regional server cluster, and tactics on each map may vary in different communities, possibly making the percentages a bit different. We will also use heat maps for our internal analysis, which show where players move, shoot, and die over the course of thousands of battles. This helps us spot the best (and worst) places to move and hide, that way when we rework the maps we can fix those issues and make them better for both sides and all kinds of tanks.

      Delete
    2. Thanks ChrisK. I'd love it if your internal numbers could be made available but I suspect they will not. All I've done is assemble some numbers from the programming efforts of Phalynx and the thousands of ADU users (from several regional servers) who are uploading their battle results.

      It would be awesome for us that look more in-depth at WOT to see how a map is changed, for example Dragon Ridge revamp if we could be shown in a massive blogpost how you pinpoint weak spots using heat maps, kill maps, shoot maps etc.

      Anyways, appreciate the comment and keep on tanking/boating/planeing!

      Delete
    3. Riddari,

      good analysis. Thank you.

      Delete
    4. @ChrisK
      You should do a map that shows relation betwen WHERE a tank was detected and HOW LONG was he visible. This will allow to detect places where one team is encouraged to camp by easy camouflage and stealt spots. Also average detections per tanks in a spot could be a third usefull stat to have.

      These stats give You a clear view where there is to much or not enough cover, as on some mps tanks can sometimes shot without beeing detected despite a scout sitting less than 20-30 meters from them. This is mostly caused by some mechanics that were added without reworking the cover system (like "painted" cammo giving additional 5% to stealt abilities, but no decrease in bushes at the same time).

      As I mendioned abovein my horribly long post, one o the main issues is that some cover should be switched from visibility blocking, to solid obstacles that do not give so much stealt, as they would giv bullet protection.

      Delete
    5. Riddari,

      a follow-up question: how exactly do you calculate skew here?

      Delete
    6. its 2 times the difference of the win percentages of the teams, but based on battles without draw

      2* { [ Team1/(100%-Draw) ] - [ Team2/(100%-Draw) ] }

      was a funny little mathematics question, hope I got it without errors

      Delete
  34. T71 is curently waaay the most OP tank in game

    ReplyDelete
  35. I have problems with some of maps as they seem to be boring. They are made for camping. Some of them though for fast paced fights. So the idea how they are made seems simple. If the maps would be larger (even if it would take more time to get to one point or another), the problem of these questions would probably go away. Also a lot of cover with less open space helps reduce the camping ratio. As people behind cover get overconfident.

    ReplyDelete
  36. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Serene Coast and El Halluf , Those are all my problems with maps .

    A rework needed in Spotting system , Give some nice bushes for stationary Scouters please !

    Most of the game i feel my tank goes up on hill , But not down , I noticed that all maps designed to make the push\rushing slower , Why ?

    There are some magic forests in Redshire and Murovanka Please rework and give to enemy team the chance to spot without being killed by invisible targets .

    ReplyDelete
  38. Please dont take maps away (there are so few anyway). People will still complain about something. They always do. Open maps are nice, but I would really like more city maps like Himmelsdorf.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's a temporary thing. They will most likely be brought back after the rework.

      Delete
    2. Btw, so few maps? We have got 30+.

      Delete
    3. Yeah, but some map were announced something like a year ago, and still did not make it to the server. I'm talking about maps like Arizona (with a lot of shallow river crossings etc), Savannah (african version of steppes with a little bit of trees and huts) and "Mexico" (i think it was also called by some US state from time to time, a completely open map with a bit of cactus every now and again) ...

      Ovi ... Internet never forgets ! :D

      Delete
    4. 30+ maps? Where are you hiding them? For most players its more like they get 5 different maps most of the time, and others only in very few occasions. I think there may be something wrong with the RNG in your game (maybe in general)?

      Delete
    5. (copied from the wiki page)

      1 Open Maps
      1.1 Airfield
      1.2 El Halluf
      1.3 Erlenberg
      1.4 Fisherman's Bay
      1.5 Karelia
      1.6 Komarin
      1.7 Malinovka
      1.8 Murovanka
      1.9 Prokhorovka
      1.10 Redshire
      1.11 Sand River
      1.12 Serene Coast
      1.13 South Coast
      1.14 Steppes
      1.15 Swamp
      1.16 Westfield
      2 Closed Maps
      2.1 Himmelsdorf
      3 Mixed Maps
      3.1 Abbey
      3.2 Arctic Region
      3.3 Cliff
      3.4 Dragon Ridge
      3.5 Ensk
      3.6 Fjords
      3.7 Lakeville
      3.8 Live Oaks
      3.9 Highway
      3.10 Mines
      3.11 Mountain Pass
      3.12 Province
      3.13 Ruinberg
      3.14 Seaport
      3.15 Siegfried Line
      3.16 Widepark

      Now lets play pokemon: Can You catch 'em all ? :D

      Delete
    6. Przemysław Majkowski,

      you've got a good memory. :)

      They didn't make it because of low quality.

      Delete
    7. As you know only a few maps have different types of game modes, so basically you get those maps more often on various game mods and this thing gives you the feeling that there are only 3-5 maps in the whole game.

      Delete
    8. if those maps didnt make it, and serene coast did, how bad were they then?

      Delete
  39. The overhaul of Prokhorovka has made games on it feel more campy. It's a given that the western road is going to be camped (by TDs usually, but heavies tend to go there as well) due to the camo advantage defending it gives, and usually the most active area of the map is the eastern side as there is the hill and town to fight over. However, the overhaul gave access to a new area on that side of the map that was previously inaccessible due to water. This corner is often camped by team I, so now it feels both sides of the map are bit of a camp fest at times.

    ReplyDelete
  40. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Airfield, Sand River, Steppes and Cliff work really well I think; there are a lot of tactical options and the maps rewards aggressive plays well. Well balanced for all tank classes.

    El Halluf works poorly for slow tanks. Perhaps move the valley village closer to the center and make it bigger, so slow tanks can try to push trough it (before all the cover/buildings there get destroyed).

    Arctic region could use some adjustments to make it more fun to play for faster tanks. The center area is perhaps a bit too exposed. West side could have a way to climb the rock at D2. An 2nd "outer lane" at C1 and G0 could allow more variation in attacks.

    Malinovka needs to have its windmill and church removed. Make the buildings in the southeast base destructable. Northeast village needs more buildings/cover. On EU servers the main lane for attacking is always behind the windmill (or church for assault mode). And then you have boring fights with people hiding in the woods at the foot of the hill. Way too many players remain in the base to try and snipe. Getting sniped from the opponents base within 10 seconds of the match starting is annoying also.

    Murovanka has too many dumb fights in the eastern woods. Too much camping behind the building in the southwest corner. Center town needs to be made more viable for slow tanks.

    Prokhorovka has too much defensive play in the west. Perhaps cut down on the amount of trees there.

    Ensk, Erlenberg, Malinovka, Lakeville, Live Oaks, Highway, Mountain Pass all share an issue where the fighting occurs in areas which are too isolated from eachother. You can't really support eachother in a meaningful way, or withdraw to reinforce a different front, unless your tank is exceptionally fast.
    Most of these maps work OK as they are, but it would be nice if future maps avoided this.

    ReplyDelete
  42. The game needs new maps for sure for even more diversity. You guys did amazing job developing new physics and new tech trees, but now maybe it's time to take a break from everything else and start developing new maps.

    A goal of 1 new map per month is too much ? Or maybe even 1 map/2 months ?

    Regards and keep up the outstanding work !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One map per month on average is actually doable. We are streamlining the process and hoping to get back on that track.

      Delete
    2. What we need are more closed maps like Himmelsdorf. Or a higher chance to get himmelsdorf.

      Delete
  43. I'd like to see bowl maps like in a destruction derby where german tanks may use their incredible ramming potential. No camping, no arty it would be more likely a gameplay mode for people with rage issues like me.:)
    It would be like this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhU6-4mQQms
    just better because its a tank destruction derby:)

    ReplyDelete
  44. will there be more options to drive through the narrow back alleys in Himmelsdorf and Ruinberg ? :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. +1 to this. No-one else has mentioned that there is a huge amount of wasted space in Ruinberg within all the city block areas. Currently, paractically all fighting in the city area is restricted solely to very predictable street fighting zones.

      I have often thought while driving along the city streets "Wow, look at all those fantastic detailed battlegrounds WITHIN the bombed out city blocks - but damn it - you cant access them - what a waste!"

      Surely it would take almost nothing from a dev point of view to open up some strategic alleyways that would allow internal access to some bombed out city block areas as suggested here, to give a totally new strategic feel and interest to this map?

      Anyway, keep up the good work in trying to resolve map & game issues as they arise.

      Cheers,

      aj

      Delete
  45. Maps that I love?
    Malinovka (seriously) - a good map when you play it with some brains, nice and open.
    Redshire - a nice hulldown/mobility oriented map, it's easy to root out campers with TANKS.
    Prohorovka - nice mix of hulldown possitions with a little village, can be played in a lot of diferent ways and thats a +++
    Arctic Region - awesome map for mobile tanks (and unfortunately for arty) but the eastern team has a way better defensive ability (and offensive too, they have it easier to push on the upper side of map and defend the lower part).
    Murovanka - fun to play as scout on this one. Way too many players play this map the 'wrong way' - makes it my favourite open map.
    Ensk, Himmelsdorf, Ruinberg, Sigfrieds Line - best maps ingame. More of these please!

    ReplyDelete
  46. Okay, for a start I would like to suggest to change the Encounter mode on Malinovka, because the game is mostly not won by capping, but rather by killing all enemies. The problem is, the capping point is to much in the open. I would like to see the capping point at the village, like in Assault, and the starting points at the normal bases from the normal mode.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Dragon ridge and serene coast surely aren't the best balanced maps, but why disabled them? I'm actually ok with dragon ridge going, but serene coast shouldn't be too hard to fix.

    Also Komarin isn't too bad i guess, but swamp... just leave it where it is.

    if you want to disable something, do it with assault mode. Maybe you should give this a look if you haven't done so yet: http://joi.betra.is/?p=1641


    And ever since i started playing in 2011 I've been waiting for a fix on malinovka.

    ReplyDelete
  48. For tank-warfare in real life, the open maps are the only real useable ones.

    Open maps, like Steppes, Prokharovka, etc. are very good maps WITHOUT arty. On these maps tanks could do what they are planned to: go forward, flanking, and doing MANOUVERING fights.

    Open maps with arties, and city-maps resulting that the tanks have to do cover-to-cover tactics, and STATIONARY fights staying behind cover. For stationary fights we don't use tanks, but SPG/TD-s.

    ReplyDelete
  49. I agree with fxbggh I have no issue with dragon ridge in-fact I like it as it diverse and different from the others serene coast could do with a little rework as regards avenues of attack and less water more terrain.

    I think in general you should work hard at making the entire map playable with less bottlenecks and cogestion points so tat the game flows more freely, less non playable terain like 1/3 of the map water etc.

    A hilly forrest map like the hurtgen forrest would be cool and also a map similar to a german V2 complex/factory etc.... so I guess I am trying to say... bigger maps and try to think outside the box as the maps we have generally follow a similar thought line i.e. 2-3 bottlenecks where tanks converge.

    As for bringing back the dreaded Swamp and Komarin.... you had better make sure they are completely reworked and not just aesthetically, they were very poor with yet again 3 bottleneck points.... come on guys lets have some variabiliy and free ranging maps like steppes (which also needs some work in the middle of the map - hills etc)

    My fav maps are Himmelsdorf, Port, etc because there are lots of places to go and lots of cover to duck in and out of.... more like that for certain but make them bigger.

    AI on maps would be good with anti tank bunkers that are distroy-able (which would make a good game type - destroy all the enemies bunkers) the anti tank guns should be able to fire back (inaccurately but enough to damage tracks etc)

    Malinovka needs reworking... same old boring hill or camp map.

    Sorry didnt mean to sound negative... these are minor poins and overall the game is very good ;)


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You can try Komarin in a training room with a friend, it is already been reworked.
      They have moved/added some buildings (around the cap?) and the rivers towards the cap is passable on the side towards the map edge. Dont remember more changes at the moment. (Komarin is still used in clanwars)

      Delete
  50. Serene Coast might work better when the depression between the two hills at the western map border is removed, such creating a contiguous plateau. Add an additional way between the two bases by removing the bay at the south border of the town, and eventually add a few island with passable, shallow water between them in column 9 of the map.

    ReplyDelete
  51. The start positions of Malinovka are not balanced well for encounter matchs. Move the start pos of the east team a bit further up the hill to fix that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. +1 to this idea. Simple fix.

      Also, I dislike Malinovka assault mode immensely for south team. Almost impossible most times when there is no arty to get more than 75% of the way up that constant slope against withering fire from camping north team oversighting the nearby cap zone and generally hull down behind the top hill slope.

      Moving the cap zone 75m-100m in a SSE direction would greatly improve the chances of a more balanced outcome. I've given up playing assault mode simply because I've grown to hate this particular map's imbalance so much and I don't like to afk when it comes into rotation.

      El Halluf assault also springs to mind for the same problem with the South assaulting team almost guaranteed defeat right from the start in a no-arty scenario. Again, if the cap point was within the small town near the hills rather than in that open dune death zone, it would at least give a better chance for balanced outcome and might encourage N team campers down out of the rocky hills to defend and get a result in latter stages of a match.

      aj

      Delete
    2. My bad.... I meant Sand River in second example - NOT El Halluf!

      Alzheimers and all that...lol

      Delete
  52. El Hallouf – I think one of the goals latest overhaul of this map was to encourage players to change gameplay and find different ways not only stalemate on A2. But people not changing their habits easily ;) Still dominates fear that going down the valley means death. I know that was added a lot of cover in the middle but no one uses them. Very interesting were changes on east side of the map, but they favors northern team. Med or quick hvy could safely reach bottom of they valley (G7) and there they have quite covered way (to J5 through J7) to enemy base. I saw many battles won by push this way. In other side southern team is forced to go to A2. On eastern side they could reach only G8. Further there is no cover, only guns of waiting TD’s up on D8. So south have no option that def on east and push through A2. Maybe a good idea will be to add some cover which allow to get covered road on F8 or made on cliffs on G8 and G9 road similar to those on J7. It will open new possibilities on this map.
    BTW. Why not try to experiment with assault or encounter with base somewhere on F6?
    Serene Coast – I like this map but I must admit that is something wrong with map. I don’t care about campfest (our players can make campfest from any map ;) ) but is clearly not balanced. Southern team has a big advantage. I’m not writing about hill but about B1. Southern team has a nice covered place till this point. When there is a fast powerful med like Batchat Nothern team is doomed. All tanks in the valley and in the village are visible and easy to shot. Position on B2 is covered from hill and arty ( who is usually somewhere on A8) also can not harm tanks hidden there. Nothern team has not such site, and worse, could do very little to prevent south from placing there tanks.
    Westfield –Assault mode – I must say few words defending this map. Its bush scout heaven. Win this side which scouts are better. There is no map which win is so scout dependent. I like attack and defence. I could say that standard mode is boring. Attack is much more interesting.
    Fjords – hate this map. Something is definitely wrong with this map, I don’t know what. Maybe teams, or general concept, but every game on this is painfull and dull.

    ReplyDelete
  53. And I forgot about one thing.

    Almost all maps are not like front lines. Only on few we have some military elements like wrecks, barbed wire, bunkers, some supplies.

    There should be infantry trenches (not too wide, to make it possible to cross them easily), some lying machineguns, more sandbags fortifications, some barricades in cities, lot of left cannons - AT, howitzers, AA. Burning trucks and tanks in the trench by the road. You also haven't used many anti tank fortifications, we have dragons teeth on only two maps IIRC, Czech hedgehog was used probably only on one (Komarin), I do not remember any anti-tank trench or barriers made from rail profiles. They could appear on some maps and be not only decoration, but elements deciding map tactics. And of course some minefields would be interesting, but it is more complicated feature.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Redshire: one hill to rule them all. I have frequently seen very stale games due to multiple vultures waiting at the three major spots of the map: the middle hill, and hills on south and east. I enjoy this map very much, but always bearing in mind that it strongly encourages passive games. If one adds the recent decrease in number of artilleries then the map becomes a fertile ground for games both passive and of little tactical value.

    Dragon Ridge is an excellent map. Just reduce the number of locations where tanks may become stuck.

    Please also consider to very maps a bit for Assault modes. It has recently occurred to me that El Halluf is an unconquerable stronghold when there is no artillery in the game.

    ReplyDelete
  55. No idea why to remove maps? Honestly, why i personally don't like the dragon map i either don't see a reason why to remove it? There is a lot of strategic and tactical potential in it, players just have to become used with it in my opinon.
    Serene Coast as well not my favorite map, no way even, but why removing it? Add more rocks, trees or something else, maybe another bridge to the isle from the other side of the map?! Many ways to make Serene Coast not that static, so don't remove it.
    Abbey, and El Halluf are perfect maps with some possibilities, don't change them at all!
    Redshire, uhmm, interesting map i like to play, but for sure some changes could improve things a bit.
    Worst map in my opinion is Widepark, too small to even build up some tactic or strategy.
    As well, don't listen always to players that have no tactical or strategical point of view that a given map is bad. In case of Serene Coast maybe a specific Arty Limit of 1 or 2 would solve the static problem, not? You see, in many cases when there is no arty in the teams, the game automaticly gets some speed from beginning with more offence on both sides.

    ReplyDelete
  56. I wonder...

    The Port map is full of containers. Since containers as we know them didnt become mainstream until late '60s or early '70s aren't they a bit outside of the scope of this game?

    ReplyDelete
  57. Perhaps what is needed at this point is the release of an SDK for maps
    and let the community develop their own. With an option in the game
    to activate non-core maps loaded into the local system it could be
    great, or something to that effect.
    The bad maps would rapidly be tried and dumped and the good ones used and their developers encouraged to tweak them.

    ReplyDelete
  58. You write "Bumpy terrain of Prokhorovka, Abbey, El Halluf, and Ruinberg (rounded streets) are going to be addressed."

    Could you explain what the problem is, and how it will be solved?

    (And, as a driver of US tanks, I don't want hull-down positions removed.)

    Incidentally, in Malinovka, just down the slope on the road to the north of the Eastern starting position, there is an invisible bump that can throw a fast light tank. There's no visual indication that there's anything there, but if you simply drive north along the road fast you'll hit it.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Removing ground undulation and hills will have differing levels of impact on different nations.
    For example the Chineese with their very low amounts of gun depression will love this. At the other end of the scale the USA and British tanks with their generaly good gun depression will loose one of their few advantages. We alrady have more than half the maps being more advantageous to Brawler tanks and their style of play.
    I understand you are trying to reducing camping in the games but you need to be careful to not NERF/BUFF entire nations.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Personally, I find myself disliking El Halluf on Encounter mode (tho it's gotten better since the rework), Ruinberg on Encounter(the team splits early on, and after that it's win or lose basically decided by whether you got the split right, and if you didn't, there's very little you can do), Malinovka on Assault (it's pretty damn hard to attack if the defenders spot reasonably well) and Serene Coast (it's impossible to attack on that map... had a game with my Batchat there once where I did nearly 5000 damage and we still got a draw because time ran out). I'm pretty much fine with all the others.

    ReplyDelete
  61. I'd really like to see the big blocks in Ruinberg opened up like on Ensk. Currently the whole West side of that map is big long fire lines. Ensk is always a very active and dynamic battle with very little opportunity for camping.

    I made a forum post about it that was generally well received, I would really appreciate it if it could get some developer attention/comments.

    http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/187539-simple-changes-to-ruinberg-to-make-it-more-interesting-and-dynamic/

    As to Dragon Ridge and Serene Coast...

    Dragon Ridge is a great map, lots of different paths to take, or you can make your won by plowing through those buildings, so much fun!

    Serene Coast could benefit from an Eastern path, maybe lower the water level and have some flats to trudge across. There are many good examples of options in the Map forum with pictures.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Craig,

      Missed this post of yours before I added a reply very much along these lines to an earlier request for Ruinberg city blocks (already graphically designed and detailed - just inaccessible!) to be opened up that would provide a huge increase in strategic playability and attack/defense options on that map.

      So a big +1 to this idea AGAIN... :-)

      aj

      Delete
    2. I checked out your post in the NA forum and noted a reply by dev Mugsy as follows...

      QUOTE
      Mugsy_ #25
      Posted Dec 14 2012 - 03:01
      First lieutenant

      Developer
      824 battles
      658
      Member since:
      06-18-2012
      Hey, super cool suggestion, I really appreciate the visuals. Will definitely pass onward and upwards. Thank you!
      END QUOTE

      I wonder what happened to that forward pass.....not fumbled and dropped I hope?

      Delete
  62. The main “problem” with Dragon Ridge and Serene Coast is that they disproportionately reward skilled play. They aren’t basic maps with basic tactics. The under-50% W/R crowd doesn’t know how to play on these maps, and so they hate them.

    For the over-50% crowd, may hate them because they’re just a pain. Here’s why:

    Dragon Ridge – going up hills is a pain in the ass. Just getting around should not be obnoxious. Sure, having big valleys is interesting, but it gets old. If we could choose what map we fought on with what tank, it would be a lot better, but it seems like every time I play something big and slow (like my Lowe or a Churchill) Dragon Ridge is my pull. What’s fun in a T-54 bites in a heavy.

    Serene Coast – This map requires heavy skill because you can’t brute force it. The three avenues of attack (west hills, center pit, and east rock outcroppings) are overlapping, interlocking zones of fire. This means that the team providing better covering fire is the team that wins. A single player can’t really make as much of a difference on this map, because you really need a lot of players with skill who understand the map to make a go of it.

    Both of these maps, I imagine, are FANTASTIC as clan wars maps. They will reward complex strats and teamwork. But as pug matches, they bite.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Sorry to bring this up again but there is a problem with the Caenarvon's model

    http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/fattoler/shot_028.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  64. I would like more maps like Ruinberg or Lakeville. They got a town that offers good tank vs tank action but also an more open side with some arty cover that still got high strategic value.

    I like to have 2-3 arty, it helps break turtle defence. So Himmelsdorf type maps is ok but not to many. Also totaly open maps with very little arty cover is not fun ether. Steps with many artys is a pain.

    For El Hallouf create more cover in the middle and make it harder to snipe every thing going down. In CW it's posible to rush but it's a gamble.

    And a general pointer to all maps: A few very small area chokepoints is not good. See Erlenberg. This invites too much arty and is very hard to attack. 1 small choke point and 2-4 bigger ones is better, like Lakeville.
    1 small one in the middle, 1 medium sized to the west and town that is a big one with many small ones close to each other. It offer many ways to attack and defend.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Would've be nice if the north side on Malinovka normal mode could get some more hardcover from the opposing side.

    Serene Coast, El Halluf & Redshire are terrible maps to play on, at least with heavy/TD's. When you pick a side, you are more or less commited to that side alone until you die, or die on the way back.

    Fisherman's Bay needs more stone walls in the middle, so the scouts rushing would have their speed considerably slowed down.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Dragon Ridge would be far more enjoyable with a wider middle and teams spawning in oposite corners instead of spawning in the same flank...

    ReplyDelete
  67. Just thought I'd drop this here from a post I made in the SEA Maps forum in December..

    QUOTE

    Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:16 PM
    Corporal

    Members
    3959 battles
    52
    Member since:
    11-11-2012

    0 warning points


    Just thought of somefink not specifically limited to Dragon Ridge (which I think has improved quite a bit since latest patch).

    I know my shared time with War Thunder is influencing me here (where destroying ground targets as well as opposition planes is required for most arcade battle wins), but would it be possible for WG to also introduce destructible military targets for each side in head to heads and for the defending side in assault games? You know, bunkers, pillboxes (need lots of HE), military transport vehicles, fuel tankers etc, etc to destroy .. that not just give players some reasonable XP and credits for destroying, but that their destruction is an essential and integral part of a team's win requirement. Maybe a discreet progress bar on screen that shows no. of targets left to destroy before victory can be achieved, regardless of how many of the opposition tanks have been destroyed?

    Just a thought. IMHO, having a purpose of more than just tanks to destroy might introduce a whole new strategic element to the game?

    Anyhoo, keep on the improvement trail. I especially like the ground texture and contour improvements in general.

    Cheers,

    aj

    END QUOTE

    A bridge too far?

    aj

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think the maps are too small for that in wot, because stuff would either be in one teams side or in the enemy's side, latter would get destroyed always, the former would be like a base cap we have now.
      I think that planes are different in this aspect because they can really hold ground the way tanks do

      Delete
    2. so in such battles you just sit in arty and pund blindly on the places you have memorized?

      or are those fuel tanks/pillboxes magically safe from arty fire?

      Delete
  68. Have you considered making Dragon Ridge in Encounter mode with the base at around F1? This would force a lot more people to go to the opposite side of the map from where they spawn.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Crap its a pity that Dragon Ridge and Sirens Coast will be throw away but you can rethink this maps as optional (player should have option to turn them off/on like witg modes od game : attack and encounter)

    ReplyDelete
  70. Please make maps linkable. You could then have campaigns that clans could battle over much the same was as the close combat series did. Dead tanks would stay on the battleground in subsequent battles and would give a dynamic feel to the battles. I good idea for the intended garage battles where you could take 5 of your tanks that are crewed in sequence to battle and if your team won key control points on the map you advance to the next map till you get to the end objective. The maps would be the same theme IE all swamp, or urban or winter ect ect. They could evolve over the set though but maps close to one another should be of similar makeup.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Dragon Ridge and Serene Coast out and Komarin and Swamp back. This is epic. I hope the crap maps stay out

    ReplyDelete
  72. The most enjoyable maps still are:
    Himmelsdorf, Ruinberg, Prohorovka and maybe Cliff/Fjord

    maps that definatly need a rework are:
    Lakeville (To easy to defend, very monotone, the city is a disaster it is close to impossible to actually attack the City.

    Redshire, as much as i like the refitting of that map, the top side still has a slight advantage, considering the starting positions. The frontal part of the L formed Hill needs a little reworking, maybe less sinkholes and a bit more undergrowth/bushes.

    Westfield. I really dont know how to make this map better, there are many ways. Maybe remove several of the bushes on the right side ridge.

    Erlenberg is well designed now but some slight improvements to Base I are required.

    Dragonridge is past saving. The entire map should be kept out or totally overdone.

    Komarin base II needs some slight improvements.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Stop removing maps already, now you have 4 maps that have gone making the already very limited map rotation even more limited.

    Focus on adding NEW maps please....

    ReplyDelete
  74. Overlord, please release more premium tanks! I want the German BT-742 (r) so badly!

    ReplyDelete
  75. Generally people want bigger maps with good amount of arty cover and buildings. And city maps. And wg has ignored these wishes all the way out from beta. Instead we get maps like widepark, province and serene coast... exactly the kind of maps players hate. And to top it off malinovka stays as the most hated map ever sice the beginning of wot but just for the sake of trolling it stays as it is...

    This whole thing about asking players feedback is just yet another laughable trolling attempt from wg. This kind of information that overlord is asking in this blog has been available to everyone on the forums where this kind of feedback is supposed to reach the developers.

    I expect wg to fail in its usual way with "improved" swamp and komarin. Both were pure arty paradises before they were taken out. Making maps arty pradises also seems to be the "new" direction (trend) with the new maps. Less cover, more bumpy ground to protect arty from scouts who lose speed because of excessive bumps and make arty targets speeds lower... and more arty in game. Again, exactly the opposite of what people want. Or trolling.

    And now you want feedback?? Seriously, read your own forums for good feedback from hundreds of players and stop trolling with us players with these shitty maps.

    ReplyDelete
  76. One goal you should keep in mind during scene design and evaluation is that it is not all about the gameplay. The beauty of the map counts too. It is more pleasant to "be" on a sunny field with nice green grass and trees than in a gray town gray clouds covering the sun. Let it shine everywhere!

    ReplyDelete
  77. I do not like that on many battlefield there are 3 or 4 "routes". Once a choice has been made at the start of the battle where to go, it is difficult to change that. If the choice is wrong than I can get either raped by overwhelming enemy forces or get bored because the real fight is on the other side. Instead i like maps where i can constantly adopt to the battle. There has been some progress in the previous patches in this regard, but i still feel the constrains of the routes too much. In almost all battlefields there are some artificial obstacles (water, hill ridge, ... ) that block us from repositioning.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Malinovka is my all-time favorite map! It is nice scene visually, and lots of ability to play well. Of course it fits mostly to TDs and bush-scouts, but even when i am in my T34, i like that map!

    ReplyDelete
  79. I have an idea on how to make the current maps more diverse. Most countries during war had mine dispersing vehicles. If each team had a fast tank that could put down a mine field of 12 mines then attack routes would have to be changed . This would make the normal bottle necks of battle obsolete on a random basis.

    ReplyDelete
  80. I've been thinking of maps that I would design and one keeps coming to mind. I would like to get some feedback on this idea .
    A canal going down the center of the map with buildings and houses to both sides. With bridges being the only way to cross. I think this would be fun to play. Ease let me know what you think.

    ReplyDelete
  81. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  82. 1.Some closed map would be nice (like himmelsdorf). It's the best map since the beiginning because it small so there are fast battles, but the city makes spoting hard (not like in province).(Maybe a map of Prypiat :D)
    2.The problem with the sirene coast map is that the 1/4 of the map is water. It looks good but it makes the middle part of the map thin, so its too defensible. And if the south team gets even up to B1 it becomes a total camping map. Maybe a third route through some small islands and bridges or somthing like that would make it better. Also the hill at b1 is much easier to get to from south than from north even if its almost twice as long route.
    3. The dragon ridge well that's a tricky one. I speacially don't have problems with it. Probably the problem is that the big heavys are too slow on this bumpy, hilly map which is making the game not that fun. I'm not frustrated because the slowness.(I have more than 2500 battles in the Löwe and also i'am a t95 owner, so I already get used to it.) But also the hills are the main characteristics of the map so only a small adjustment is possible, which may not be enough. :(

    ReplyDelete
  83. Would you consider taking "random terrain genrerator" approach as auxiliary to human-made maps? I started a thread on forums recently (quite technical albeit small), so chceck please there for details.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Serene Coast needs to be reworked completely. Dragon ridge is playable compared to what it used to be. Hope Swamp and Komarin ARE going to be reworked as well, otherwise will just be rage-maps.

    ReplyDelete
  85. If you want more fun, let only 1 - 2 maps be 3-way or less fighting maps. Not all maps should be bumpy, because it`s start to look like are fights ar at hilly area, there still should be wide open flat maps, with few mountains and rocks, maybe no rocks and mountains at all, just forest areas, maybe houses, some rivers, ditches. Malinovka should be reworked, so the team who takes hill wouldn`t won game easily...

    ReplyDelete
  86. Hi there,

    I like sand river very much, some more desert maps like this would be glad :)

    ReplyDelete
  87. The changes to el haluf last time around realy didn't do anything about the battle always taking place in the same spot which I'm sure everyone knows where. The center of the map from east to west is just a death trap for anyone who crosses. As to redshire I think bringing the elevation up in the west end of the map with a travel route just like the north side has would make the battle more fun. Himmelsdorf is by far one of my favorite maps.

    We could use a map with a setting like oil fields or a refinery. Also Kursk would be a great map to have as well with tank traps and all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Without changing anything alse, perhaps just lowering the dry river bed in the centre section of El Haluf another metre and adding a few more dense bushes along it's course would help provide a lot more worthwhile cover - also the small village in the valley could be extended northwards along the dry river course to provide extended cover for those willing to risk the dash down from the prime camping sites.

      aj

      Delete
  88. ...and so at the end all maps are good or bad depending on who plays.I think that all of the map have the good and the bad,some works best for td or for light tanks other for aggressive players or for campers.to retire one should make a petition on all players SILP and however many would still be unhappy. I think that the maps are more or less good as they are, the only thing to do is put as much as possible and enable them all for all levels tanks.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I turned off battletypes other than normal. (eg. Assault, Encounter).

    The MM too often dropped to "wrong" battle. (for example: as attacker with TD, defender with medium, etc.)

    Normal battles are more balanced ones.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I know it's a (really) minor issue, but what itches my skin every time I see it is the way the RR tracks are laid, especially in depots. Cross-connections are all wrong and there are absolutely no curves, only straight tracks that would derail a train the second it would pass over.

    http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/21085842.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  91. I'm gonna stir up a hornet's nest here but I think we need more arty friendly maps. I love it when I get Westfield, El Halluf, Arctic and others.

    Big open maps where arty aren't pinned to a few obvious spots to be able to cover the map, yet may be required to move to dig out the campers, where spotting by lights is essential and where there's ample cover for the cleverer heavies and meds.

    Arty can be decisive and useful on these maps, playing an actual role rather than being reduced to hoping for lucky shots and stupid enemies, and just hoping to make a few credits / XP rather than being able to influence the game's outcome.

    There's nothing worse than being arty on Himmelsdorf, Ensk or Ruinberg and don't get me started on Malinovka defense. No other tank type is hindered by the style of the map in the way that arty is.

    Give us bigger, open maps! Please? :P

    ReplyDelete
  92. Overlord,
    letsee if i can bring some order to my ideas:

    1) You need to stop reworking maps to turn them into pock-marked SPG-fests, you virtually removed ALL artillery cover from the reworked maps.
    I particularly dislike el halluf rework, it disabled the entire east portion as a viable fun hide-n-shoot place with the rocks it had before and those huge peaks in the way are annoying. Generarily when i talk to my friends and clan, when we see notice of a rework we know the map is going to be mostly ruined.

    2) Stop making wide-open empty maps with a little housing here and there!, look at all the maps you release, wide open... more wide open... more nothing..., where are the himmelsdorf-styleALL-CITY MAPS?, start making more 100% city maps, we don't have a decent city map since ruinberg was introduced more than a year ago!, and even that map is more than half open, unacceptable...
    Have you seen the wiki list, there's only ONE CLOSED MAP and look at the amount of open maps, open maps should be cut in half, they're not enjoyable to anyone but SPG-fests

    3) Do you even consider the T95 and extremely-slow vehicles when you design maps?, do you realize your new maps make this vehicle completely obsolete?, what use do you think a T95 has in sand river other than camp the base?, or encounter in siegfired where you need to traverse a huge part of the open map?

    ReplyDelete
  93. To be honest the only thing I'm waiting for map-wise are bigger maps.
    Until those are introduced every redone or new map is just... "Oh look a new/redone map that's way too small to be interesting."

    The whole concept of bigger maps interests me by a great amount, because right now radio and especially the radio perks are utterly useless.
    Except for stock tanks or low tier tanks, and you won't stay on low tier long enough to care about it anyway...

    Please for what it's worth try to focus on the bigger maps, they would make battles way more intense in a much different way.
    The bigger the map the more important are logistics, and tactics.
    Just imagine all the maneuvers you could do if serene coast was 4-5 times as big, and the map would go ALL around a lake similiar to lakeville only... BIGGER.

    Just think about the lake on Lakeville with 2800m from one side of the lake to the other, with a couple of islands and bridges in the middle.
    Go around the lake on the left or right side? Maybe with a big mountain and several hills on the left and a city on the right side.
    Some shallow points inside the water to try and deep wade through it to reach a single lonely island that is a nice sniper position...

    What I want are bigger maps, so far the maps have been overall pretty nice, but small.

    The real deal starts when you look on your minimap, seeing nothing because you're out of radio range, figuring out that you're screwed and should withdraw.
    Then you spot enemies without them spotting you, get around them and rejoin with your mates... awesome.

    Or the opposite, you drive around with two platoon mates and all of the sudden one of them is taken out by four tds hiding in bushes all around you.
    Congratulations, you ran straight into a well planned ambush, slowly withdrawing while firing, knowing that you're about to die.
    Artillery fire lands several hits on those tds and force them to retreat, the valley is yours commander.
    Time to advance and get those sneaky bastards!

    So... give us bigger maps, please.

    MFG from germany
    Peo01

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. yes and with such a big lake, one team sends 12 tanks on one side, the other sends 12 tanks on the other side, who will come first to the enemy cap wins, battle ends after 12 minutes driving with 3 tanks dead on each side.

      Introducing bigger maps requires changes in the game engine
      1500x1500 is an absolute maksimum what could be playable with current vehicles and technical limitations.

      Delete
  94. Hi overlord,
    EU server just crashed again, could you please tell the ppl responsible for the server to stop letting it crash every week?

    much appreciated,

    AngryBanana

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Our best guys are looking into it. Sorry.

      Delete
    2. Thanks a lot overlord, just saying this at least show that you(not you personally but WG) acknowledge the problem and are working on it.
      EU community team doesnt seem to find it neccesary to show that, since they either pretend it didnt happen(this week) or outright lie and say it was scheduled maintenance, I really cannot understand why.
      sorry for being so negative to you, while it isnt really your fault, but you're kinda the only person available to complain to ;)

      Delete
    3. Wasn't scheduled that time again. EU hardware needs some attention and we are already doing some work to make things better.

      Delete
  95. Deeply apreciating the removing of Dragon Ridge and the Serene Coast. They need to be totally revorked:
    Both maps are lackin in "Avenues of Aproach", specially for the heavy tanks.

    Dragon Ridge: because of the terrain inclination Slow tanks are forced to go down the hill, and stay there the whole match, or try to reach village and die before they reach safety.

    Serene Coast: both spawns have alot of terrain, and middle is missing some. Result: everyone try to spread over terain and camp, waiting some silly rush. Then they kill them all in the crossfire in 1 major choke point. This map forces players to camp. 1/3 of the game its a draw, 1/3 of the games half of 1 team rushed and died after 1 minute, 1/3 of the games its a usual game with pushes and heroes.

    PLEASE don't release KOMARIN!!!!
    In that map sometimes happens that someone says: how about a quick cap? And we either win the game having some fantastic 50XP points, or half of our team die in less than 3 minutes trying to cap...

    ReplyDelete
  96. I'm really suprised at everyone saying that Serene Coast is a campfest - there are so many blind spots from the hill that its a waste of time to have more than one or two tanks covering it. You can make it all the way up the West flank using buildings for cover. And the center valley is too low for effective sniping if a spoiling force is in the eastern village...

    Anyway, just my two cents. Its not a map that promotes camping the way so many others do, so I'm surprised its being totally disabled rather than just tweaked.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Serene Coast is clearly the most boring map. when enouth arty is in the match, u camp urself to death or go dying.
    I think the Problem is the Arty itself. everytime no arty is in the match, the game is more fun and dynamic.

    ReplyDelete
  98. You said you were thinking of making maps such as Stalingrad or Warsaw. If I can give you any advice, I think that Warsaw is a bit overrated (of course it's very historical place) and I think Cracow would be much better. I imagine its Main Square as a battle area. :D It would also be nice to see a map with a waterfall. I don't know why, I just think it would be interesting ;)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. With the Cathedral and lying head? :)

      Delete
    2. Why not? Anyway, everyone wants more city maps. ;)

      Delete
  99. I appreciate all the work done on the maps, and i think its a good thing to bring new ones in more frequently and balance the flawed ones, like someone mentioned already.

    But the games biggest problem now in my eyes are the overboarding arty parties. Mostly in hightier games, but i see them more often in lower tiers too.

    Artys should be strictly limited to 2 per battle (random, not cw for sure).
    They are already dominating the battlefields.
    When you have 3-8 in each team it makes the game very static and not enjoyable to play neither for me as an arty, nor as a tank.

    You just have to play a few tier 10 games (or even better tier 8 arty, since its more likely to get an artygame), and you will see how players react, when they play with a lot of artys.
    NO ONE ENJOYS IT.
    I can not understand how this stands in the current game as it is, over such a long period of time, without getting changed.

    Would be interested, what you think about it.

    Interestingly it was the same thing with serene coast and dragon ridge,
    every second game you heard the people moaning over the map, and now it got changed. So maybe there is hope. :-)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Personally, I'm looking forward to stretching the SPG branches to 10 tiers. This is supposed to facilitate creation of balanced battles, ensuring smoother distribution.

      Delete
  100. Get the adrenaline pumping and stop making campers map design like malinovka, serene cost and one of the worst map swamp !

    ReplyDelete
  101. I absolutely dont understand what is so wrong on Dragon Ridge from my side of view its wonderfull and fast map. Sarene Coast on other hand is really bad map lots of draw i had on this map and attack here means almost always lose.

    ReplyDelete